Thalia Theodore Washington is the Executive Director of DonorsChoose.org, an online charity that connects donors to needy classrooms throughout the country.
Thalia began her career as a teacher, working in the Bronx for two years. After that, she moved to Los Angeles where she assumed leadership roles at Teach for America and The Wonder of Reading. In these roles, Thalia honed skills in finance, HR, operations, and volunteer management. She returned to New York to get an MPA in non-profit management at New York University’s Wagner School of Public Service and, after graduating, became Deputy Director of DonorsChoose.org. Recognized for her strong leadership, Thalia was quickly promoted to the position of Executive Director. She currently manages a team responsible for raising millions for high-need schools through corporate and foundation partnerships.
Thalia spoke to Zora&Alice about overcoming the challenges of negotiating as a young professional.
Z&A: What was your first big career negotiating challenge?
My first job out of college was as a teacher – no negotiating. But my second job was in a non-profit in LA. I’ll tell the end of the story first, which is that I didn’t negotiate and I should have. I was young, it was my first office job, and I had no idea what I was worth. I had a general desire to ask for more, but more had zero numbers attached to it.
The fear I had and the fear that women have is that negotiating makes you seem greedy, not classy; it’s a knock against your integrity. Yet, now that I have had the chance to hire people, I would argue that there’s something to be said for advocating for yourself. Probably everyone has a job where an offer was made and you just said yes. But smart people don’t always just say yes.
Z&A: Have you ever had a really negative experience negotiating?
I still to this day kick myself for not negotiating [in LA]. And the reason is that you’re always building off of your last salary. You don’t have a $30,000 salary and then your next job’s $100,000. There are stages. So it’s not a bad experience so much as I still kick myself for not doing what I could have and should have done.
Z&A: Tell us about a successful negotiating experience.
When I started at DonorsChoose, it was my first job since graduate school, so I was far older and wiser. It went really well! And the reason it went well is that I absolutely knew what I was worth. I have friends who are in law school, and they say everyone’s going to get paid the same. But in non-profit, you really have to do your homework. There are large non-profits that have a reserve of funding where salary is not an issue, and there are small non-profits, and there are those in the middle. You’re not going to the big guys asking for pennies. They are probably prepared to make that offer and probably have thought about it in advance. When it’s the small guys, they may not have thought about it or may not have a lot of room to negotiate. You have to know where you’re trying to get in.
You also have to do your research around what kind of salary people are making in your location. I’m in New York City; it’s completely different than if I was in fill-in-the-blank. Don’t be shy about asking people you know, mentors, or career services if you’re in school. The other thing is 990s [IRS form for non-profits]. 990s show the highest paid people in the organization. So if the top person at the organization is making X, use your deductive reasoning skills to figure out what’s possible. Then you put yourself in perspective based on your degrees and experience.
I went in knowing that I would be negotiating. That was a goal I had set for myself. So when I got the offer, I knew I was not going to accept on the spot. I prepared for that conversation. You know, “What’s the vacation policy? Is there a bonus structure? Is there a professional development policy?” Then, “Thank you very much, I’m so excited, you’re a wonderful organization, I’d like to take two or three days to think about it and get back to you. Can I schedule a call with you on Wednesday?” I practiced that conversation over and over again. And then I practiced for the follow up call. So they offered X; “I’m actually looking for Y.” I practiced scenarios, like what if they say no right on the spot? If they say maybe, then I have two other things I’d like to add in. I literally had a script right in front of me for every scenario. And I did not have that conversation in person. Some people might be different, but I needed my script. And I just felt more comfortable on the phone. Think about it and prepare for it in advance so you feel like you have control of the situation.
I also prepared for how many times I was willing to go back and forth. You have to decide on your acceptance level. Does three times seem greedy? You don’t want to burn bridges with people you’ll be working with. These seem like obvious things but if you don’t think about them in advance you get flustered.
Z&A: How would you describe your negotiating style?
I try to strike a balance between knowing what I’m worth and not feeling shy about saying it. I know internally how many times I’ll negotiate until I’m uncomfortable. I do my research and I know what I’m worth, and I keep it framed in why it’s really great for you to make sure I’m happy.
Z&A: How has your negotiating style evolved?
It feels more like a natural part of the process as opposed to this excruciating, agonizing piece. I know that there’s this dance for interviewing and asking for promotions. It hasn’t gotten easier, but it’s now just part of the process. So I don’t know if my style has evolved so much as my attitude towards negotiating has evolved. For me, the biggest piece has been on the hiring side. I can remember all of the people who didn’t negotiate. Of course you can’t, but you want to be able to say, No, don’t say yes! We were prepared to offer you more but you didn’t ask. And you never get that back.
Z&A: Have you ever asked for a promotion? Did you go back through this whole process?
I haven’t asked but I have received a promotion. I did negotiate. But less, because you know the organization. You know what is or isn’t possible. But at that point, you also have lots of concrete evidence about what you’ve accomplished. You come with points about why. And ideally, you give a range.
I was once approached by a team member who wanted one [a promotion] and I can definitely speak to what doesn’t work: having a nebulous ask. I want a promotion. Period. is not the right approach. Also, come with a menu of the things that you’d be happy with, like salary or change in title. But have you thought about what that title should be? Do the homework and then have that conversation.
Z&A: Is there any advice you would give to our readers on negotiating?
There are different kinds of things you can negotiate for, even if it’s not the salary.
You should always negotiate, even if it’s for something really small, if only to get the practice. Even if it’s something like, they want you to start in 2 weeks, you ask to start in 3, if only for the confidence it gives you. It should always be part of the process. Guys always do it.
I have a long list of everything I could negotiate for, like professional development or site visits to other offices.
Z&A: What did you wish you knew about negotiating when you began your career?
I wish I knew about the salary stuff, like that you can say a range. Should it be a $10K range? A $5K range? Someone could have easily said to me, start with a $5K range. Maybe the salary is set, but $5K is small potatoes. See what their reaction is. Usually it’ll be a yes. Having done so much interviewing now, I know that once you’ve gone through the process of narrowing it down and making someone an offer… it’s exhausting. They’ve already invested time and energy: 5000 people in the organization have signed off on it, they’ve met you, you’ve come in 5 times, they’ve seen you’re resume, everybody’s talked about it, they’ve said no offer to three other people; in that context, a $5K bump? Most people will say yes.
